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End credits intrigue ?

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End credits intrigue ?

RYAN
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Ages since i posted something contentions, so here goes. I am quite curious about the end credits on TOTPs and in particular when our dancers get named on them. Now this was stirred in me more by the fact that it was brought to our attention by Legsfan on the 40th anniversary thread that Gavin got credited on both the 22nd & 29th of July shows in 1976 when his last appearance for the troupe was on 15th July. So what i hear you ask !

Well it was just about impossible for a dancer to be credited when he or she was no longer in the dance troupe. Once dancers like Cherry & Pauline's tenures ended, their names were struck of the credits there and then. So in my mind this is incontrovertible evidence that at the time of `Heaven Must Be Missing An Angel` (Gavin's last routine) he was simply going on two weeks holiday and expected to return to action on the 5th of August show. So therefore i think he informed Flick in early August that he would not be coming back.

These `dancer holiday` breaks are quite curious in own right aren't they. From what i can see the previous troupe, Pans People always appeared to have the full whack in terms of personnel on each show. The caveat to that does seem to be when Dee Dee was away with her dodgy achilles, and the odd time Sue & Mary were away, but im guessing they may have been unwell rather than on holiday. Now once Ruby Flipper got started, holidays did become more common place.

What do you mean holidays ? Well im not sure how Lulu wrangled a fortnight off in June 76, so soon after joining (maybe a family holiday had been pre-booked in Butlins !) But these holiday breaks certainly became more noticeable once Legs & co got going into their second year 1977 and beyond.

Now this brings me onto a really controversial statement and something im expecting to be shot down in flames for. Cherry was not available for three weeks in August 1976, okay the 12th Aug show is missing but as she was not there on 5th & 19th of Aug also id wager she wasn't on the 12th. Now its no secret Cherry wanted to get away and further her Television career in other fields. So im going to suggest she told Flick & Robin she was finished, hence how her name did not appear on any of those three August shows.

Remember that even if dancers were absent, there names `always` appeared. This trait carried on into Legs & Cos days when dancers were away, they got credited. So how come Cherry's name was missing for those three weeks ! It may be things didn't quite pan out for Cherry in August and she just asked if she could come back, maybe thinking she would be on TOTPs for a while longer than the final month she did. Afterall she was a really popular dancer and fan favourite, so a welcome back would be no probs.

Just looking at end credits names for Legs & Co, as i say every member got credited on every show even if they were away. All except on one occasion. Bizarrely on the 20th of August 1981, Rosie's name was omitted. Okay she was not available on that show, but thats the only occasion since 1976 that a resident dance troupe members name has not been included on the end credits. Now im not suggesting she had quit, but very strange indeed how her name wasn't included. She was on the following week though.

As we all know Patti was away for a whopping five shows in late Aug & Sept 1981 but managed to get a name credit on every show. This only goes to emphasis how difficult it was for a resident dancer to not be named, and only makes my controversial Cherry claim from earlier even more intriguing.

Remember all the end credits can be viewed in our `lists` section on the forum. Just click `lists`, then either Ruby Flipper or Legs & Co.

Of course my theory about Cherry quitting and coming back again is just supposition and conjecture, but i do think i may have a bit of a point if you follow the logic of end credit names. As ever comments are welcome, am i thinking to deeply or could i be onto something. Could be an ex-dancer will read my remarks and she could be the one to shoot me down in flames.
RYAN
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Re: End credits intrigue ?

CoffeeThing
An excellent bit of detective work Ryan and very intriguing. Maybe Rosie can shed light on her omission, or maybe even Sue can recall events around the times mentioned?
This week, I are mostly be watching ToTP and drinking coffee
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Re: End credits intrigue ?

Legsfan
In reply to this post by RYAN
This is very strange. My theory for the Rosie credits was that there may have been a change in production, so while they were changing the other peoples names they thought why not Rosie. I agree with the Gavin holiday situation, but Cherry baffles me.
Or another theory was that they used the end credits for their pay roll system so when Patti was off in '81 which I have heard rumours of her having an injury, she was credited for 'sick pay' and other absences such as holidays, the dancers were still credited because of holiday pay. So Rosie was uncredited because her absence was not authorised so she wasn't paid.
Legsfan
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Re: End credits intrigue ?

RYAN
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I just cant offer any explanation for the single Rosie omission in 1981. I mean why mess about changing the credits when they never did in the past. Yes i reckon the Gavin thing about what happened.

Well your pay-roll theory is certainly more left-field than anything i could ever have come up with, and i cant really say i concur with it. The dancers would have been salaried, so in other words they would have got the same money whether they danced or not on any given week. As for Patti's lay off, well injury has always been the supposed reason. But there could be a number of personnel reasons also, but if i was to say, id go for injury.
RYAN
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Re: End credits intrigue ?

Legsfan
Thats all I could think of I hope this mystery is eventually solved
Legsfan
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Re: End credits intrigue ?

RYAN
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Thanks for coming up with a theory LGSF, even if i didn't concur at least you gave a view point. Just on Cherry and her three week Ruby break, no other dancer in Legs apart from Patti late on had such a large time away from the show. Though Gill had three weeks out of four off in June/first week in July 78. Im guessing one week of that would have been down to illness.
RYAN
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Re: End credits intrigue ?

GiLuRo
In reply to this post by RYAN
A very interesting post Ryan, I think the practice of naming/not naming dancers continued after Legs & Co left and Zoo took over, was there not something about the Godley & Crème appearance for Wedding Bells where there were three dancers performing alongside them, but only two were credited? I seem to remember a discussion about who was who, the name Pinky seems to ring a bell somewhere in my memory.
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Re: End credits intrigue ?

GiLuRo
In reply to this post by Legsfan
Legsfan wrote
Or another theory was that they used the end credits for their pay roll system so when Patti was off in '81 which I have heard rumours of her having an injury, she was credited for 'sick pay' and other absences such as holidays, the dancers were still credited because of holiday pay. So Rosie was uncredited because her absence was not authorised so she wasn't paid.
I understand what you're saying about the payroll system Legsfan and it's a good point, but I'm inclined to agree with Ryan about the dancers being on salary, another theory for the Rosie name omission could be that if she went AWOL the producers might have just acted in a petty way, as in, if she isn't here her name doesn't go on the credits, after all we know that at this point it appears the BBC wanted rid of the girls anyway and could well have behaved in a way they wouldn't have previously.
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Re: End credits intrigue ?

RYAN
Administrator
In reply to this post by GiLuRo
Yes i think its important to not hold to much sway on end credits after Legs & Cos departure, as it became just to convoluted and confusing and to be honest, im not even sure the names matched the credits. You make a good point about `Wedding Bells` and there was also `Lets Groove` when four got named but only two appeared to take part in the routine.

The main trust of my post was basically between the times of the on-set of Ruby Flipper and the end of Legs & Co, more over the strange Cherry credits omission for that 3 week period in August 76.
RYAN
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Re: End credits intrigue ?

Old Grey Whistler
In reply to this post by RYAN
Very interesting debate.
I think in the case of Lulu, she would have told Flick when she got selected that she already had a holiday booked and would have been allo0wed to be absent. With seven dancers in the troupe, losing one for a couple of weeks wouldn't have posed a problem.
I think your theory concerning Gavin is probably correct. I do think that it is likely that Gavin and Flick had a discussion concerning his performances before he went on holiday and during that break he thought things over and decided to quit.
I think the situation with Cherry is rather more difficult to judge. To me, her relaxed demeanour and tanned complexion on the 26th August show, looks more like someone who has just enjoyed a three week break in the sun than someone who has seen a career move backfire. I do wonder if during this break she auditioned for something else and this was the time that she handed in her notice before she left a month or so later. I don't know why she would have been removed from the credits though unless it was something as simple as an admin error. This could also be the reason why Rosie was deleted from the credits in 1981.
Without Legs & Co, there would be no show!
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Re: End credits intrigue ?

Willoway
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by RYAN
Yes an interesting discussion, my speculation on cherry is she may have received an unpaid leave of absence for work elsewhere, hence her disappearance from credits as she was unpaid but eventual happy return.
However I really disagree on Gavin, he appears to have fallen on his sword straight after his last performance, as per Phil steggles' interview on totp2 though  Phil contradicts himself a little on whether it was a sacking or resignation. The best explanation I could give for the two extra weeks pay is it was effectively Gareth's pay off, and also avoided the appearance of sacking, so giving gareth a chance of staying in the industry though it was not to be.
...is she really going out with him?
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Re: End credits intrigue ?

RYAN
Administrator
Thanks OGW & WW for your thoughts on this. Yes if we go by those now very dated TOTPs2 interviews that Phil did about Ruby Flipper & Lulu did for Legs & Co, Phil clearly states that Gavin got the push, or was it a resignation. Here is the quote.

I guess this is the best evidence we have, but im finding it difficult to comprehend how he still wrangled two more appearances on the end credits after his dismissal/resignation.

Im still sticking my initial thought that even though his last routine was HMBMAA on the 15th July, he was still considered a member of the dance troupe for the next week or so whilst the decision was being made about his future.

Would folk really have cared or even noticed to much back then if this rather insignificant member of the troupe been sacked or resigned, i think not. I feel his name would have gone from the end credits in time for the show on the 22nd and there would have been no regard from the production team to the fact about protecting him the appearance of being sacked.

Just back to the TOTPs2 interviews, they even got Phil's surname wrong. No im not talking about this Steggles nonsense, im referring to the fact they called him Haig, instead of Haigh. Oh and on the Lulu interview, Patti gets the ultimate disrespect from sloppy journalism and gets called Patty.
RYAN
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Re: End credits intrigue ?

Sue Menhenick
When Gavin left R.F. he was finding  it difficult to feel comfortable with the work load , especially on weeks when the number dropped and we would have to start again with just a few hours sometimes to replace the routine..... He was not a natural dancer in the same way as Floid and Philip, so it was mutually agreed between Flick and Gavin, that he should perhaps leave and maybe find something he felt happier doing. He was a brilliant gymnastic performer and a very likeable guy. Not too sure, but believe he moved to Spain and was in a band.

Cherry had decided that it was time for her to move on, she auditioned and got a part for the West End show 'A  Chorusline' .....So she already had something else to go to . We all went to see her on opening night and she was brilliant.

Philips stage name was Haigh, and Steggles is his real name.
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Re: End credits intrigue ?

RYAN
Administrator
Thanks for the input Sue. With regards to Cherry, which is where the main intrigue is in this thread, do you have any idea when she first mooted moving on from Ruby Flipper. In my intro to this thread i suggested this may have been in early August of 76, as she disappeared from the end credits for a three week period then only to return near the end of the month.  This as far as i can tell was the only occasion a resident dancer on TOTPs ever had their name removed from the end credits whilst still a member of the troupe. Im suggesting she may have prematurely moved on, only to return for a while and then depart.

Not that i really expect you to recall such a detail that would only interest an anorak like me.
RYAN
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Re: End credits intrigue ?

Young Mister Grace
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On the subject of end titles: it's easy to forget, in our digital video twenty-first century, but making changes to titles of TV programmes was not a quick or trivial task back in those analogue seventies and eighties: A graphic designer would have to make up the new physical title card and get it to the TV studio. Given an organisation the size of the BBC, I'd guess that the producers would need at least a days' notice, and more likely two or three, in order to change even one name on a programme's end credits.

So if there was a late change in the dancer line-up due to something unforeseen, I could imagine the production staff would have more pressing things to worry about that tweaking the dancer's listings.

Just a thought.
You've all done vey well!
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Re: End credits intrigue ?

RYAN
Administrator
Yes absolutely YMG, which just goes to make the Cherry August 76 omission even more intriguing. I mean, for example a Legs dancer misses five consecutive weeks in 81, but gets a credit on each show, obviously the graphic designer had other things to do. In the last hour ive received an email which i cant really go into, but it does help to explain matters. Seems my theory, though not 100% correct, is sort of on the right track.
RYAN
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